Women - Asma Lamrabet: “Reform of the religious sphere is essential.”

What does the word “reform” mean to you as a Moroccan citizen?

As a Moroccan citizen and as a human being, reform for me is a requirement for all societies, and is always driven by the specific circumstances of any given society and civilisation. If we look back at history, we find that there have been reformers in every society, and that reformist ideas have always been put forward which didn’t bear fruit at the time but possibly surfaced later, even centuries later, when the right time and circumstances for reform were achieved. As a citizen, I see reform as an absolute imperative, because it is through reform that we move forward.

What do you think are the main factors that determine the success of any reform project?

In order for a reform project to succeed – whatever it may be – an important condition must be fulfilled, namely that the political and democratic means exist to allow a debate to take place within society. Unless there are democratic spaces of freedom, there will not be a debate or notion of reform because everything stems from political freedom. Whether we agree with each other or disagree, and whether or not obstacles appear further down the line, it is crucial to bring out opinions.

Does that mean involving those who are interested in reform?

An ideal democratic space implies the involvement of all those who are interested in reform, which is something that rarely happens. That’s why I described it as an ideal. But the majority at least has to be involved.

If you were to identify what was in most urgent need of reform, in which area would you begin?

I would actually begin in the field of research that I work in, which is the religious field. Everyone starts out from his or her own domain, perspective, field of research, or job, and my chief concern is the religious project. Given that the religious majority in the Arab states is Muslim and Islam is a linchpin of our societies, we can’t be oblivious to it or view it as merely confined to the private sphere, because it imposes its presence. The past thirty years have witnessed the return and the revival of religion. Yet it seems to me that it’s not in fact the return of religion; history has been repeating itself for fourteen centuries, and attempts are constantly being made to renew our understanding of religion. My chief concern is therefore that we try to undertake extensive, profound reform of the religious sphere. I believe that other areas will come to the fore, because religion, whether we like it or not, is an important part of the social lives of Arabs and Muslims from a sociological standpoint. And even though religion is sometimes not apparent in the political space, if we were to liberate it from political authority – and I emphasise the importance of the question of liberation – most problems would be resolved in all the various fields. But that’s not to say it’s the only solution.

If this view is dependent on deepening the debate and research at the intellectual level in order perhaps to formulate a vision of religion that is appropriate to our current society, then does the issue also depend on the present reality and the citizenry, or only on the theoretical aspects?

It has to relate to both the domain of theory and to reality. All ideas that have been put forth throughout history have first appeared as theory, i.e. in abstract intellectual work. And after being discussed and deliberated, these ideas are always conveyed to the majority and the reality of the people. This is what we anticipate, that this debate will be launched, and hopefully it will parallel the reality of the people. Thus it will take place at the intellectual level, but at the same time will come down to reality on the ground and be stimulated by the problems of the people, so that influence will be reciprocal.

What would you begin with and concentrate on within the religious sphere?

I would begin in the political sphere. We must differentiate between politics and religion, and between our understanding of religion and our understanding of political morality.

What do you mean by differentiation between politics and religion?

You’re pushing me to speak about secularism. I am not against secularism, but against the monopolisation of secularism. Some “secular” thinkers monopolise a secular concept, especially French secularism, and think that it has to be applied to all societies, while the history of secularism indicates the contrary. Every society in the West has walked a long road to arrive at its own conception of secularism. In the Muslim world and the Arab world we have to come to our own conception of secularism, one that is derived from our reality, our perspective, and our sociological life. In my opinion, the fundamental principles of secularism protect religion from being used for personal and purely political purposes. If this is the fundamental principle of secularism, then I would argue that this principle must be applied. However, the model and application of a specific mode of secularism must come from within our society. To return to the issue of participation, when all elements of society participate, then agreement will inevitably be reached over a particular model. The reason for all the current commotion is that we all speak of concepts about which each of us has our own personal view, and we don’t accept the opinions of others. But when there is community-wide debate, we find that others’ opinions – though we might disagree with them – contribute to achieving a more sophisticated society in which there is respect for freedoms and democracy.

The Code of Personal Status and Inheritance was modified with the promulgation of the Family Law...

That was a model of community debate.

Actually I was going to ask what you think of this law.

This follows on from the question that you raised at the beginning, that there must be a collective effort within society. Morocco provides a good example of a collective effort with the Family Law. At a certain point in time, Morocco was divided by a deep social rift. However, after the law was enacted everyone began to defend it, even those who had previously opposed it, given that the debate surrounding the law originated from the struggle waged by the secular women’s movement in Morocco, a fact that must be acknowledged. Neither the Islamists nor the traditionalists, or the conservatives or the right-wing, have ever attempted to broach this problem; it was the women secularists in Morocco who raised the discussion and fought for rights. The debate took place when the issue gained prominence and entered the political sphere, and afterwards a sort of consensus emerged that yielded this result.

This law established the principle of equality between the sexes within the family. How do you view this principle?

It was a major step, the importance of which should not be understated. Within the Arab world – with the exception of Tunisia to some extent – Morocco’s Family Law is regarded as exemplary and progressive. The law establishes the joint responsibility of women and men for the family, something that was non-existent in contemporary religious discourse. It’s always argued that the husband is the head and ruler of the family, etc. This is the discourse of religious jurisprudence that is unfortunately found in all laws in Arab and Muslim states. When this debate took place, we found that there were other standards and verses within the Qur’an that support shared responsibility and equality. But on the other hand there have regretfully been problems in the implementation of the law on the ground because we have worked at the level of symbolism only. In terms of its application, prevailing mentalities have been unable to accommodate this law due to the pervasive cultural and religious illiteracy in Morocco. And this also extends to judges, both male and female, because women have sometimes been more resistant to this development.

Educational reform should preferably have taken place in parallel with the reform of the law, i.e. the law should have been accompanied by educational reform. Laws always benefit and assist, but in order for their implementation to go smoothly there must be profound, radical educational reform.

In practical terms, is this educational reform a matter of education, training, or otherwise?

Education is the foundation, and a major problem in Morocco. Education must be reformed, as must religious education, since the latter is hugely important. As long as we focus on acts of worship and set aside the global, inclusive, and universal message of the religion of Islam without understanding it, we will always remain stuck within the narrow confines of doctrine and religion. Therefore there must be reform in education, science, and religious studies in order for these reforms to be accepted.

Measures have been taken to increase the representation of women in representative bodies, such as the national list in parliament and the additional lists for the local councils. Do these measures meet your expectations as a woman?

No, frankly. We have still not embarked on basic democratic reform, and even women’s representation remains symbolic, because what’s the difference between the representation of women and men? Of course we need women to be represented, which comes within the framework of the quota system or positive discrimination. But how will this representation benefit me if it conveys the same political message? What good will it do me if it entrenches the autocratic regime? And what will those women do for me if they act out a performance of a non-existent democracy? Reform must be far-reaching and not limited to mere symbolism. As far as I’m concerned, true equality is equality in ability. Although I would rejoice as a woman if the proportion of women in these bodies were higher, if I had to make a political choice between a man and a woman I would favour the person whom I trusted and who would present a clear political programme for the country.

Do you think the fact that women face numerous obstacles in entering politics should be taken into account?

Yes, I do. I would argue that the quota system and such measures are an indispensible necessity in current circumstances. Other states that have made greater progress than us have resorted to it, including France, which has a lower percentage of women in parliament than the Rwandan parliament, for example, where it stands at 40%, and Rwanda is not a democratic country. So this issue doesn’t indicate whether or not a country is democratic. In short, affirmative action measures must be adopted, but at the same time our intention should not be for women merely to be present in these bodies, but that they should also deliver a political message to the country.

I see that you have spoken about this subject as a citizen as well. Is there anything else you would like to add?

Actually that is my opinion as a citizen. I want to return to the Family Law. It is important, as I said, but we have to recognise that it didn’t offer anything new in relation to religion. In discussions with European women activists, I would always respond to their statement that the law was “modern” by arguing that it is not modern according to their view of modernity and not new, but rather that it originates from the Qur’an and the Sunnah. All of the texts were derived from purely religious jurisprudence that has been around for fourteen centuries, but we didn’t interpret it in that way because of the prevailing view of women’s inferiority.

In response to a demand made by Soulaliyate women, the state recently recognised their right to benefit from communal land on an equal basis with men. When and how did you discover the problem of Soulaliyate women?

I found out about it recently only through the press, and to be honest I haven’t explored it in depth.

What is your personal view of this movement?

I think it’s a legitimate movement. It is the right of those women to try to get their demands met, and the state and the local authorities must understand these demands. One generally finds that it is women who do the hard work, in both urban and rural areas, as they take care of the housework and work outside the home. In today’s Morocco the income of women has become important to the family. I compare these women to the forgotten women who transport goods between the town of Ceuta and Tetouan. They are called “mule women,” and men pack tonnes of goods on their backs in order to bring them in illegally. And the Spanish officials in the occupied town of Ceuta prefer to assign this work to women rather than men since they don’t arouse suspicions and put up with the discrimination. They treat them like pack animals. I am shocked and pained by the lack of any interest or human concern for these women, either from the media or from the Moroccan or Spanish authorities. One of the French channels aired a programme about these women but no one was interested. I think that it’s the struggles of women like them, and the Soulaliyate women, that we should pay attention to, struggles that arise out of the daily reality of the Arab world.

After the reforms that Morocco has undergone over the past two decades, how do you view the evolution of the status of women in terms of their participation in the workplace, in the economy, in politics, and the family?

If we’re impartial, then we should have a positive and somewhat hopeful view. When you compare Morocco to other Arab and Muslim countries, you see that Moroccan women have taken significant strides forward, be it in their family lives or their working lives. A large proportion of them are employed. And although there are problems, the general outlook is not gloomy and definitely doesn’t correspond to the West’s view of Muslim women. I oppose this view because there’s not just one single model. There isn’t a standard-type Arab woman or Muslim woman. That’s a stereotyped view. There are different categories of women; there are modernist women, female university lecturers, and women in politics. We know there are many problems in rural and marginalised areas, but we shouldn’t have a bleak outlook.

What problems do you encounter as a human being/as a citizen at work and in the home?

I don’t experience problems at work or in the home. This question is always put to women who are concerned with women’s issues because of a belief that their concern must stem from their own suffering and problems.

Perhaps responses given to this question would refute that idea.

I live a normal married and family life. And within Moroccan society I consider myself lucky to belong to an affluent social group, both educationally and materially. But I see the reality of others. I work as a doctor in a public hospital in Rabat where I encounter the tragedies of women on a daily basis. Even women who belong to the educated classes face problems, including violence. But their suffering is less than that of rural women and women who live at the outskirts of the cities. We’re not oblivious to these problems; our cultural integrity compels us to defend these women and to understand reality from their perspective, and also to look beyond it.

Do you think that these problems are different from those that men face?

They are different. Women are always the victims in society, and especially in the Arab world and in states that experience serious problems. And so if there are economic problems, you find an increase in poverty among women. Women are also the victims of war, and of the effects of globalisation. But we can agree that in our society both women and men are victims of the political regime, even though women suffer doubly. As they say, men are persecuted in the street and then persecute women in the home.

What role do you think women’s organisations have played in influencing society?

I always take an optimistic view. I would say that women’s organisations have played a role for which they must be recognised. Whatever their political or ideological affiliations, they have had an impact in restoring respect for women, which is important in terms of personal freedoms and the freedom of women and of society. For instance, the appointment of female Murshids (religious guides) has symbolic significance, even though in reality it has not yielded any political results or had any effect on religious reform, because the discourse has not changed. But symbolically the presence of a female Murshid in a mosque has added value for women in general.

And perhaps this is the beginning of a shift in ideas about women.

Of course; even these female Murshids will reassess their views.

Where would you locate women’s organisations in your main field, i.e. deepening theoretical and practical research into religion and its interpretation? Do they have a role to play in this project?

They may have a role but they are not playing it. I’ve yet to see a women’s organisation, or a political or ideological organisation, undertake such work. Their work is purely social, something that can perhaps be attributed to the circumstances in which we live, meaning the difficult social conditions, which causes them to focus on social demands. However, there has to be an evolution in the thinking of these organisations, so that we can move on to another stage and deepen our intellectual understanding of these issues.

What is your own experience with women’s organisations?

I have no experience with them. I consider myself an independent researcher and thinker. I have never belonged to any political party, or to any association or organisation. My freedom is important to me. I keep my distance, which allows me to gain understanding of all methods of working. Although there are a number of ideologies that I do not agree with, I try to understand them because I believe that they have not come out of a vacuum, but have been produced by a certain reality. I try to understand them from my own position, and therefore I regret the absence of the deep community debate and dialogue that is needed in the Arab countries, and especially in Morocco. I don’t have an entirely negative or a positive view of them, but try to understand the reality.

What do you dream of achieving as a woman, even if it is difficult or impossible to achieve at present?

Respect for the freedom of others; that is, freedom in the wider sense.

And as a woman?

To be respected as a woman.